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FAA New Pilot Cert Rules Won't Do Much To Improve Safety

Discussion in 'FAA News, Opinion and Articles' started by Edward Jeszka, Aug 13, 2013.

  1. Edward Jeszka

    Edward Jeszka Hangar Silver Member IV

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    Tue, Aug 13, 2013
    Opinions Differ On Value Of Extended Pilot Training

    FAA Says More Stringent Rules Will Make Pilots Safer; Not Everyone Agrees

    When rules that require 1,500 hundred hours for a pilot to qualify as a first officer on an airliner took effect, the FAA said that they would produce safer pilots. The previous qualification was 250 hours.
    [​IMG]
    The agency says that the more stringent qualifications mean pilots will have a better grasp of the fundamentals before they are placed in the cockpit of an airliner.
    But some say that the quality of a pilot's training is far more important than the sheer number of hours logged as pilot-in-command. The Chicago Tribune reports in an enterprise story that at least one former American Airlines captain said that flight time can equate more to luck than proficiency or professionalism. "I flew with a guy with 10,000 hours in the military who scared the hell out of me," said retired AA Captain Bill Parrot. "It was a reality check."
    The new rules have also created a shortage of qualified pilots, according to the paper, leading regional airlines to offer signing bonuses to pilots who meet the minimum qualifications.

    More: http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=a6a66a50-9b49-4c1b-a344-4fa35261e8d9
  2. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member I

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    Signing bonuses! The new rules are already working. When the regionals start paying more, they can recruit better applicants. What this article fails to mention is that most regional new-hires had 1000 hours total time or more with the old rules anyway.
    Lord Leighton and Edward Jeszka like this.
  3. Edward Jeszka

    Edward Jeszka Hangar Silver Member IV

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    This was nothing more than knee jerk reaction to the uproar caused by the Colgan crash. In reality, the new rules would have had absolutely no impact on the flight crew as they both exceeded the new "minimums" by a pretty substantial amount. Most of the previous discussion on this in earlier threads indicated that most of us didn't feel this was the answer. Colgan had issues with the demands they placed on their crews and the pay scales they applied as well as crew pairing. But that would have flown under the radar as it really appeared to be a training issue. When the captain couldn't recognize all the various signs of a stall and neither did the fo, then something was glaringly wrong. And it pretty well was not in how many flight hours they had. Knee jerk reaction by knee jerk administration at FAA at 800 Indy as well as NTSB. And it now has the potential to turn the industry upside down. Just what they are qualified to do when they aren't criminally accusing innocent airmen of non-existent violations.
  4. Gary737

    Gary737 Hangar Silver Member I

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    Actually, the "accident" began to unfold before the plane stalled. No one was watching the airspeed decay until the bottom fell out at a low altitude.

    With regards to "hours" being the Mecca that the FAA bows down to, to me hours don't mean much. You could have 1,500 hours of touch and goes, or 1,500 as a Flight Instructor (mostly daytime VFR) or you can have a guy with half that that's been flying freight, charters, etc..... Let's see what "kind" of hours you have.

    Plus, young guys can fly 30 hours a month but can be logging 80-90 hours a month. Put them in a Sim for 20 minutes and you'll have your answer on who knows how to fly.
    Ning Saensuk and Edward Jeszka like this.
  5. ThePilotFromNYC

    ThePilotFromNYC Hangar Bronze Member I

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    My CFI said that during next Aug the FAA is changing the way you get your ATP. He said it's gonna be a lot harder then it is now.
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  6. Gary737

    Gary737 Hangar Silver Member I

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    A good buddy of mine was building hours in MIA by flying right seat on Air Haiti C-46s. Wanting to apply to some airlines, he went out and got a Single Engine ATP! He applied to Piedmont (probably late 1978) and got hired! He went on the old YS-11 and is now a super senior USAirways Captain.

    I got my ATP with my 737 Type Rating ride!! A 2-for-1 Special!! Our #1 Capt at both Air Florida and at Midway got his ATP with his 707 Type rating!
  7. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Silver Member III

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    In the old days a pilot became a flight instructor and taught people to fly. 2000-3000 hours later this well rounded pilot applied to the airlines and in most cases was hired. Usually an ATP certificate was earned after flying for the airline for a year.

    Today the "PROFESSIONAL" pilot program costing about 100,000 dollars turned out a 300 hour pilots with their COMMERCIAL Certificate and 100 hrs multi-engine time and a degree indicating that the pilot is a professional.

    What is so hard earning one's Instructor Rating and teaching and learning. A well rounded Flight Instructor is one hell of a good pilot:)
  8. Edward Jeszka

    Edward Jeszka Hangar Silver Member IV

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    And every word true! As in FAA Inspector I could tell what kind of ride I was going to witness by startup, cockpit procedures and taxi. We wouldn't even have to get in the air. I must admit on occasion I was pleasantly surprised but after the jitters wore off and the applicant realized I wasn't there to bite his head off, well things went pretty well. But that was only occasionally if first indications were that they may have been some Parker P51 time as well as the local area pilot getting proficient in T & G's. I will state that a flight instructor doing the instrument, m/e and other training usually came well prepared to do a fine job. Probably been scared more than he would like to remember and one of the comments I would make was that I didn't appreciate being scared to the point I had to fly the airplane.

    But the fact that the a/s got so low on an approach makes you kind of wonder who was looking inside the cockpit. Maybe even just trying to see ground? That would then go back to aircraft specific training and airline crm procedures that obviously were not practiced or maybe even trained to. Just another two cents worth.
  9. Gary737

    Gary737 Hangar Silver Member I

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    Yep, on that approach one pilot flies the airplane and the other monitors the approach and looks outside for approach lights, the runway, etc. I saw a computer re-enactment of the instruments on that accident and the A/S fell off sharply until the stalled...



    My tightest ILS ever was taking a 737 into Orlando/Sanford Airport one foggy morning. My Capt and I had flown a lot together and he told me, "When we get to Minimums, don't look up..... you stay on the instruments until I tell you to look out". As we passed 200' he said, "stay on it, don't look up". At 100' he finally said "runway straight ahead, look up", and we landed. He knew that many pilots, looking up right at Minimums, tend to slightly climb or level off and they lose the runway environment and then have to go around.
  10. Edward Jeszka

    Edward Jeszka Hangar Silver Member IV

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    This is exactly the reason we have such a terrible accident record in GA. Why not use the experience of older pilots who have actually "been there, done that and have the T-shirt and sneakers". I would like to state that I been very fortunate to have my career touched by far more experienced pilots than I. They were never reluctant to talk aviation. They were also very willing to talk to you about some dumb-a stunt you may have just pulled in the pattern or on the radio or some other phase of flight that we all probably did as fledgling aviators. Many took the ribbing or comments in the manner they were meant and gained from them. Others, less fortunate, let it run off their back like water off a duck. I really think that those who took the comments seriously were beneficiaries of years of experience. Don't find much of that going on anymore. Guess maybe that isn't politically correct any more like it once was. Too bad.

    I bet Gary has given his new FO's the benefit of that same information to try to keep them and the pax's safe. Obviously it has worked for Gary. I would be willing to say that he has probably flown the hard ones a number of times and did it the safe way every time.
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  11. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member I

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    Those were the days!! My uncle worked for Ernest Bennett's airline for many years. The remaining C-46's, DC-6's, and DC-7's on the Mais Gate Airport were damaged beyond economical repair by the US military in 1994.
  12. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member I

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    I agree with your statement 100%. The new rules would not have made a difference in the Colgan crash. However, please consider this- The profession doesn't attract the best applicants these days because other professionals make more money. A lot more money! Can Congress mandate the airlines to pay pilots more? Heck no!!!!! Political suicide!!! Can Congress enact a knee-jerk reaction that serves no purpose but to shrink the pilot pool which causes compensation to increase and thereby raises the quality of people entering the profession? They can, and they did. Same as when you are flying, don't look for the differences between blue and white- Look for the differences in the different shades of grey.
  13. Shawn White

    Shawn White Hangar Bronze Member IV

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    But don't you think the pilot pool is small enough already? When the shortage of pilots starts hitting the airlines hard, I can imagine them trying to pass regulations allowing a single-pilot operations rather than raising pilot's salaries...
  14. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member I

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    Safety Departments won't allow single-pilot operations without a way to counter an incapacitated pilot. Pilots do become incapacitated from time to time. There was a thread here just yesterday about a pilot having a seizure, twice. UAV technology may allow a ground based pilot to take-over some day, but that day is a LONG ways away when considering certification and public acceptance. It's the same reasoning that airliners have multiple engines and multiple systems- redundancy.

    The US Congress doesn't have the authority to set pilot compensation at anything above an hourly minimum wage. Only supply and demand will affect pilot wages. There has never been a major shortage of pilots in my adult life. In my childhood, airlines that couldn't recruit qualified pilots started to do their own ab-initio training.

    The truth is that there are enough qualified pilots (in the US), but they won't leave their corporate or off-shore paycheck to fly for regionals' peanuts. If the regionals can't find enough pilots that will fly for food, they will have to increase wages to attract the pilots that won't fly for free. Supply and demand- Shrinking the pilot pool is the quickest way to increase pilot wages.
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  15. Edward Jeszka

    Edward Jeszka Hangar Silver Member IV

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    I remember a post not too long ago that talked about just that very thing, single pilot 121 ops. I can' find it right now but will look today and try to get it on top again. I think that if safety dept. were doing there job they would see some of the weaknesses in crew training, pairing, crew duty and rest times long before it was mandated. I am not blasting all Safety Dept. as I know that some really are very deeply involved in loss prevention through safety far greater than FAA mandate but some are just filling squares. This should be the airline and passenger's first line of defense. Some carriers as well as other operators look at it as a division that comes up with recommendations that impacts the bottom line. That is very unfortunate. But we all now that is what drives the industry, the bottom line.
  16. Gary737

    Gary737 Hangar Silver Member I

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    Having two pilots is a great way to have checks and balances. With a sigle pilot, no one's sitting next to him to ensure that he's flying correctly.

    Also, if you want to see people STOP flying, let the word get out that the new 797s will be flown solo...... People LIKE having two qualified people in the cockpit.
  17. Oggie

    Oggie Hangar Bronze Member II

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    But as UAV operations have shown, an aircraft can be operated by a pilot who is not present in the aircraft. The technology was never around to permit remote operations in the past but now that it is here and evolving it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the 2nd pilot will not be present on the flight deck-which might not be entirely bad. That way, the PNF is able to concentrate on the instruments and not be distracted by any issues on the aircraft itself.
  18. Gary737

    Gary737 Hangar Silver Member I

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    If there is a second pilot on the ground, doesn't that eliminate the cost savings of not having a second pilot? Might as well have hin IN the cockpit where he'll have a lot more info available to him than via remotely.....
  19. Edward Jeszka

    Edward Jeszka Hangar Silver Member IV

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    Gives me a warm and fuzzy, considering every time it rains I lose my satellite feed to my Direct TV receiver. Sure would be a surprise to have the plane on autopilot with nobody flying it. Would make the Minnesota over fly look like child's play.
  20. Oggie

    Oggie Hangar Bronze Member II

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    It is possible that a remote pilot on the ground could be watching more than one flight.

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