More American Pilots Face Layoffs Because of Qatar oneworld Deal – Union
Qatar Airways Boeing 777
Thousands of American Airlines pilots face layoffs because of the recently announced addition of Qatar Airways in to the oneworld Alliance.
This according to the Allied Pilots Association (APA), an independent body representing around 11,500 American Airlines pilots, who staged a picket when the official announcement was made in New York.
‘The [oneworld] deal will allow the Doha-based airline, the Middle East’s second largest carrier, to coordinate routes with oneworld’s other major partners, which include American Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Iberia, Royal Jordanian and British Airways, and offer passengers a greater number of routes around the world.
“AA pilots have been witness to a decade of outsourcing to which point nearly 3,000 pilots were laid of and AA’s flying reduced by nearly 30 percent,” Thomas Hoban, APA communications chairman, said in a statement to Arabian Business.
“AA used to be the largest airline the world and now we’re currently a very distant third (and sometimes 4th) when compared to UAL [United Airlines] and DAL [Delta Air Lines]. Much of this is the result of codesharing, marketing alliance, and the expansion of oneworld at the expense of the AA pilots and our fellow employees.
“While no one ever expected AA to fly from any of our hubs to Doha, the concern is that our passengers that would normally have flown on AA from one of hubs to an international destination will instead be diverted to a codeshare or an alliance partner,” he added.’
American is currently negotiating a labour contract with the APA, but the union says it has called no work action at the carrier.
Category: Airnation
Hi All:
So if one departs the US on AA, to a foreign destination and change planes to another American flight. The flight crew will not be a US crew! although the aircraft will be a US “N” numbered aircraft!
US and European pilots are the highest paid. Airline CEO’s have outsourced maintenance to such a degree that emergency returns have increased dramatically. Now airline management could outsource airline crews, allowing lower “PAID” and less qualified crews to operate US aircraft!
This is, in my opinion, the final straw that breaks the camels back!
OUTSOURCING IS DANGEROUS!
Richard Wyeroski, former FAA Safety Inspector
FAA WHISTLEBLOWERS ALLIANCE MEMBER
Whoever said that airline crews can be outsourced????? This is totally wrong. You only see that with a wet lease that includes aircraft and crew alike and this is not the case here. Code sharing is a totally different kettle of fish, and has been on the go for a long time. This is pure AA Union posturing and a pile of rubbish. Qatar’s joinng Oneworld will have no bearing whatsoever on AA jobs. This sort of thing just blows the mind!
Hi All:
Sorry forgot the pay link for QATAR. No pension, no unions. There is a high turn over in employment?
See Link: http://www.2beapilot.co.uk/airlinepilot/qatarairwayspilot.htm
Delta Airlines has bought a 5% piece of AeroMexico and is planing on building a maintenance base in Mexico City for 65 Million dollars. When this facility get up and running, we can expect Delta to layoff more of their mechanics in the US and do that maintenance at this new facility.
What will stop Delta from using Mexican pilots to fly Delta aircraft on Delta routes? The FAA?
If you read the book “Attention All Pilot’s by William McGee, there is a section on “code sharing”. It explains this practice very nicely and yes this has been going on for years.
Out sourcing is dangerous and it will be only a matter of time before the legal ease required to allow foreign nationals to fly US flights in America on US “N” numbered aircraft is a reality!
https://crewroom.alpa.org/ual/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=48587
United Airlines Plight!
Richard Wyeroski
Richard, I will not dignify your remarks with a comment. David, you are RIGHT ON! THANKS!
Please qualify my remarks Jim? Airline management is dumping union contracts and out sourcing of crews are a reality.
Foreign pilots will need to obtain a US ATP. All the FAA has to do is give their blessing and training will be done in foreign countries ( like they do in the mid-east) and US Airliners will be flown by a foreign crews.
Airline management is on course to do this
……..So make your case please…..?
Richard Wyeroski
Richard, your comments are full of statements qualified with the word “WILL” and so they defeat your argument as you base your affirmations on a conditional future that may or may not happen, and that are merely based on your suppositions and not on fact. You are attempting to state a reality based on what you believe WILL happen (conditional) with no basis on fact whatsoever. Airline management may wish to do this, and many other things but the reality is that it is not so simple. You don’t just have the FAA involved, you would soon have Immigration involved as well. Foreigners cant come to the US (or any country to my knowledge) and take a job without the respective visa and good luck to any airline getting a bunch of work visas for Airline Pilots. Then you have Homeland Security! They would probably ship all the Airline CEO´s off to Guantanamo for even suggesting it, consider the risk in their minds! Richard, I´m, sorry but you suppositions are just that, suppositions, and frankly, they are outlandish and out of touch with reality.
As a Brit may I offer this observation?
AA is currently third among the US majors according to someones comment upon this forum, and as such is way above the biggest of the European and Asian carriers so why are the US airline union whinging so much about a relatively small global carrier joining one of many alliances?
Do not forget that all of the US majors are heavily debt ridden and/or post chapter 11 whilst the challengers come with sovereign wealth funds behind them
If Qatar succeed it is because they do a job well and therefore the rest of the mob should simply shape up and compete. No US carrier has taken the risk to order the A380 but the rest are using them and making gains into markets that US carriers can only dream of.
Hi All:
Would everyone that is interested please read this link on United Airlines. It has a lot to say…….
https://crewroom.alpa.org/ual/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=48587
United Airlines Plight!
Jeniffer, an interesting fact is all US airlines are not subsidized like the rest of the world that are either owned by their respectives countries. This includes maintenance facilities also.
Airbus is interesting, since this manufacturer is owned by a joint venture between England, Spain, Germany and France. There is a ot of money here and I respect Airbus for attempting to produce the largest Airliner in the world. However problems have plaged the manufacturer. Airbus “wing cracking” has slowed sales somewhat and the US carriers are cautious in getting involved.
The Aircraft sell for about 300 Million US and have a high operating cost when compared to the two engine B-787 and 777.
David I suppose being brought up in Brookly NY has effected my grasp of the english langauge and “will” is my righting style.
Look around at outsourcing and how it has destroyed US and European Maintenance facilities with cheap “third world” low quality labor. The pilots are next.
About being out of touch, well I am sorry to say, I am a former FAA Inspector and have seen a lot of corruption. That is probably why I write about these problems.
Richard Wyeroski
Richard, one can have been brought up in Brooklyn, Brisbane or Bangalore, it really makes no difference to the fact that your arguments are based on a conditional case you BELIEVE “will” happen but that has no basis in reality, at least at this juncture. Kudos to your being an ex FAA inspector and no doubt you saw much corruption and much more continues, not just in the FAA!
The original article was simple, the AA union said that Qatar’s joining Oneworld would cause massive layoffs in AA’s rank. You immediately chimed in telling us all the enemy was indeed at the gates and very soon, US airlines would be piloted by cheap, dangerous foreign pilots. I’m sorry but both the AA Union’s case as indeed your own is fantasy. You say you write about a problem but that is not the case. What is the problem? There has been no outsourcing of pilots, and there is no evidence at all of any in the works and even if there were, there is no logical way it would pass in the US! You also lead to understand that most if not all of non-US airlines are subsided by their respective governments. That is totally false as it only happens in a very small number of cases (i.e Alitalia) and when it does, it nearly always is because an airline is on its death bed anyways! Nearly all foreign airlines of substance are publicly traded companies and have no perks from national government apart from those the US airlines also have, such as not having to worry about cabotage etc. Actually, some like QF dont even get that much protection!
In previous posts and this one, I have given you solid arguments why your worry about foreign pilots is unfounded. Perhaps you would care to actually answer them instead of merely restating your hypothesis about outsourced flight crew?
David:
There are facts that you seem to over look. The destruction of US MRO’s because of foreign third world country maintenance bases. Unskilled labor performing maintenance on US aircraft at 30 cents on the dollar. Emergency returns increasing at an alarming rate. 140,000 skilled US aerospace workers have lost their jobs because of this outsourcing. Are you aware that the FAA since 2001-2008 had certified hundreds of these facilities? The next step is the US pilots. I suggest if you will David, Read “ATTENTION ALL PASSENGERS BY WILLIAM MCGEE”. Quite a few aviation experts have given their opinions on the condition of the US Commercial Aviation Industry in this book. Our industry is in a very sad state because of “out sourcing”. Take an example pertaining to Home land Security. Anyone who travels knows of the delays the US public must endure in the name of safety. Billions a year spent on security. Did you know that the very aircraft you may board could have been maintained in a country like El Salvador. Believe me the maintenance is inferior and there is little or no security, no drug testing or background checks for employees!
The culprit in all this is the FAA for allowing such a facility to be certified and Homeland Security for doing nothing about it. In 2007 Congress asked the agency to investigate. That investigation has never been done. (see link)
http://washingtonexaminer.com/security-lax-at-overseas-airline-maintenance-facilities/article/143511#.UH_8cq4Z9lI
SECURITY CONCERNS WITH OVERSEAS MAINTENANCE
The US pilot pool is next and it is a simple matter for the FAA to approve this. THEY WILL BE TOLD TO DO SO! The other side of this coin is “Regulatory Capture” (October 3, 2012 Airnation)
Your adamant in your convictions. You say I do not know. Keep watching as the layers of safety are now gone and the result is obvious. Code Sharing, Outsourcing, Regulatory Capture all add up to one thing, a weaker industry to make more money.
Hi All:
A point on out sourcing. The FAA controls certification of all US pilots. Every certificate, rating, designation and authorization is issued by FAA. In order to fly US certificated Aircraft in the United States, pilots must qualify for the appropriate certificates.
Outsourcing moves into the next level, let’s call it the pilot pool. How could the unions, airline personnel and our elected officials stop dangerous outsourcing? It happened to maintenance, airline call centers and now pilot jobs are at stake. (Please view link)
http://www.theunfriendlyskies.org/assets/campaign-outsourc-letter.pdf
What is next?
Reality check: for some of you
1-(Fact) The current crop of US airline executives are all ex Crandell/Lorenzo/wall street bratz(look it up), that still think pilots will keep pulling the cart to get the carrot.
2-(Fact) Many experienced pilots have left the profession, having seen the wizard. The younger generation now have a different reality to base their career plans on.(the days of “I’ll fly for food” are over) Unless of course you’re from Bangladesh(problem is, trainning costs money). It took a few accidents to require 1500 hr min. hiring standards. UhOhh!
3-(BIG FACT) OUTSOURCING has been going on for OVER 25 YEARS. Hello! Ehhm! What’ya call all the express carriers out there.
4-(opinion, based on having a BRAIN) The brat-vultures and banksters have plenty of money to grease washington wheels, therefore international outsourcing fully coming to an airport near you soon(right now it’s just being done in the closet, “airline alliances”).
5-(Idea for BratPack) Hey maybe you guys could sell airline franchises, independently owned and operated. Cheap flights for the public, good for the economy(after all, it is “public transportation”, strange, on land, it’s still “public”, huhh, weird) and you could help law abiding illegal persons(did I just say , “law abiding illegal”) a path to citizenship if they become pilots, mechanics or FA’s.
6-(I almost forgot FACT) Ask any civilian trained pilot if they ever heard of flight instructors who work/worked in the US while overstaying their student visas(yes,it does start early in a pilot’s career)
7-(Patriotic Statement) Educating people is the least I can do.
Remember, that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it.
Hi All:
Maybe a point should be made clear here. The FAA does not control the (Commercial)Aviation industry. The Industry controls the FAA. Yes there are enforcement actions and fines , however these are against the little guy and fines are rarely paid by the airlines! This is a show for the public and Congress.
Since being forced out of my job as an FAA Safety Inspector, I have spent the last ten years exposing the FAA and their corruption. It takes a thick skin to use your “real name” and fight for safety and expose corruption. Believe me I have paid for that distinction. With that being said, the FAA (FLIGHT STANDARDS DIVISION) is a dog and pony show, that man behind the curtain, a wizard of OZ lights, smoke and mirrors. There is no safety issues only the appearance of safety.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WE)
1. Fact- FAA allowed hundreds of inferior overseas maintenance and repair facilities to be certified.
2. Fact- FAA does not inspect these facilities
3. Fact- These third world facilities in El Salvador, Brazil, Mexico, and the Mideast have destroyed US and European MRO’s with the blessing of the FAA
4. Fact- Pilot outsourcing is increasing dramatically with the blessing of the FAA.
5. Fact- Unless the FAA is forced to change course, foreign nationals will be flying US aircraft in America!
I find it hard to believe that we spend BILLIONS of dollars on security and our pilot and mechanic jobs are being out sourced.
When our system fails and unfortunately the accident rate increases with needless loss of life because of greed, these are the people to go to for for the cause of this travesty.
Mr Raymond Lahood, DOT Secretary
Mr Calvin Schovel DOT Inspector General
Mr Michael Huerta Acting FAA Administrator
Ms Peggy Gilligan FAA Administrator for Safety
Mr. John Hickey Deputy FAA Administrator
Mr John Allen FAA Flight Standards Manager
These people are the current management in the DOT and are responsible.
Richard Wyeroski, former FAA Safety Inspector
FWA WHISTLEBLOWERS ALLIANCE MEMBER
Please, Richard and orville, substantiate your facts. Looks like you are just offering more OPINIONS. RIGHT?
As I said Jim, read the book “Attention All Passengers” by William McGee.
After hearing that, man had been to the moon. Jim said “that’s just your opinion. I don’t believe it. Substantiate your facts”.
Jim, here’s an idea, why don’t you prove to us that the (4 FACTS) I’ve stated are incorrect. Why don’t you do your own homework and come back to enlighten us. Otherwise you sound like a politician/lobbyist.
I bet most readers have vetted my (4 FACTS) and are now the wiser.
People, when you observe a statement do not impulsively react, it is a sign of intellectual immaturity sprinkled with a dash of foolishness.
A wise man once said “fools rush in……..” u know the rest.
Let’s just for a moment analyze.
1.Airline alliance=outsourcing;
I’m a small Sheik kingdom with no labor laws and a tiny POPULATION but alot of oil money. I buy a bunch of very large planes hire impressionable pilots and crew from all over the world. WHOSE POPULATION, DO YOU THINK I INTEND ON OFFERING MY SERVICES TO?
2.US domestic airline outsourcing;
There are roughly 1200 aircraft flying with the logos of Legacy Carriers(AA,United,Delta,USAir) on their tails and they’re all contractors. Add another 267 for American Eagle. That one is a subsidiary of AA, but the workers are not AA. In most cases the contractors are financed directly by the big 4. That equals roughly 16600 pilots alone that are contractors/outsourced by the big 4. That’s just domestic outsourcing.
For international outsourcing we have Mr Sheik and his slave labor.
“How d’ya like them apples”
Now some opinions;
Aviation and other forms of trade should be bilateraly negotiated betweem governments. Therefore, if I have 300 million consumers and you only have 10 or 20, the number of flights operated between us by our airlines, should reflect those realities. Otherwise, like Ross Perot once said, “you have a giant sucking sound” of our money and jobs. And he was right.
It’s not complicated but the 1% would like you to think it is. When it comes to business not much has changed in human history. Ask a local pimp. The source of wealth has allways been and will continue to be cheap labor and brutallity.
By the way Qatar has less than 2 million people.
Every year airline emergency returns have been increasing dramatically. I do not have to “prove” this statement!, one could read about it everyday right here in Airnation. Over 70% of heavy maintenance is performed at lower cost third world country MRO’s. The Industry has lost over 140,000 jobs because of this outsourcing. Outsourcing pilot jobs is on the increase. These deals with domestic regional airlines and foreign operators is outsourcing. Call it what you want, “code sharing” or whatever, it is outsourcing. Now take it a step further. AA Pilots and Mechanics have lost their union contracts by the stroke of a federal judges pen, because the airline is in chapter 11. In November AA pilots will lose their pension contributions. AA pilots have voted whether to strike or not. The results of this vote is secret. All these points I have mentioned are fact. The information is out there for all to read. United pilots are is the same position. Airline management wants “CHEAPER” pilots and as maintenance outsourcing is now a reality so it will be for US pilots.
Look, day in and day out airlines are making emergency landings because of a maintenance problem. This is directly related to cheap maintenance.
The hand writing is on the wall. Lower cost pilots means less experience that will lead to deadly accidents.
THE LAYERS OF SAFETY ARE GONE AND THE INDUSTRY HAS BEEN LUCKY…SO FAR!
Lastly, The FAA is responsible for it all. Allowing hundreds of inferior third world MRO’s to be certified is wrong. Not inspecting these facilities properly is criminal. I know the FAA agenda well, Cover it up, shut up or get fired. What the hell are we doing?
orville…you’re just a bag of hot air. I don’t have to substantiate anything. You’re the one making all the innuendos. Just back up your assertions. It is certainly not up to me to support or attempt to back up your theories. I know, you simply can’t, those are just philosophical concepts which have no basis in FACT!
Jim:
Calling some one a bag of hot air or saying that you will not “dignify a remark with a comment” is playing games.
The info is out there Jim……it is out there and for some reason you do not want it out.
When 400 people die in a preventable accident all people like you could say is ” I AM SORRY”
The FAA and Airline management have lost their way and only care about money!
Maybe we should go back to before deregulation
Richard, Show me the facts man! Support your claims with substantiation., not rhetoric. That is not my job. You and orville are the ones making all the noise and accusations. Back up what you are saying. Should be easy for you, if in fact there is any substance to what you and orville claim.
That’s it Jim. It is easy to say something is not true. So be it!
Jimbo,
you sound like a broken record. I’m clearly identifying my FACTS and my opinions(they’re even labeled for you), I figured some would be confused but you’re too much.
Really? I need to substantiate what are clearly obvious statements. I figured since we have the WWW and this being an aviation site and all, it would be condescending.
Now, if this was an inflight magazine, I would tell my readers that the workers transporting them and the mechanics who performed the last C and D checks are not employed by the airline logo on their tickets, but instead resemble something similar to what airport security used to be like, before 911.(what a joke that was, I remember going through security at some of our major airports and most of the guards didn’t even speak english, min wage subcontract workers, what a scam).
I even played ball for you and gaaaave you some figures. Can’t you read? So far, all you gave, is more broken record and rushing in where others have feared to tread.
Ok, humor us. We’ll take turns, I gave some figures in my second post(1200+267 aircraft, 16600 pilots, 300 million vs 2 million citizens). Now it’s you’re turn. Deal?
All that, what you’re defending has, is “PROPAGANDA”. They have the billions to spend on trying to convince us that the rope around our necks are fashion accessories. Honesty and righteousness is self evident and as free as the air you breathe.
Just when I thought I was finished commenting on this subject, the FAA comes out with Enforcement action against three MRO’s in California.
http://www.aviationtoday.com/the-checklist/77588.html#.UIcKJK4Z9lI
Now what is wrong with this picture? well for one thing FAA does not do surveillance on overseas third world country MRO’s. In some cases FAA has never been to these facilities for “YEARS”!
Why, one reason is there is “no” budget to do this. Let me say this again, FAA allowed certification of hundreds of foreign MRO’s and does not have funding to inspect these facilities.
HOW STUPID IS THIS?
Blame Margaret Gilligan Associate Administrator for Safety in D.C. for this fiasco!
Thank You
US MRO’s are easy to inspect. The FAA just walks in anytime they want to. No so overseas!
Just one more lope sided set of rules.
Richard, I have no trouble with your comments on the death of US MRO facilities versus the rather lax allowance of those overseas, though I think it is rather simplistic to label them all as suspect just because they are in the third world. There are excellent airlines in the third or second world with top rate MRO facilities. Actually planes are not falling out of the sky at a higher rate than before, quite the contrary. However, this post was all about the ludicrous idea that the AA pilots’ union put forth that their jobs were going to be lost because of QR being allowed into OneWorld! You then jumped on (and I see Orville has accompanied you) the band wagon and said that outsourcing was at the door. True outsourcing is not code sharing or anything like it. Nor AA or any US airline is going to just be virtual and contract flights elsewhere. (BTW, as an AA Explat flyer, I detest codesharing in all its forms.) Outsourcing that you warn about would be foreign pilots coming to the US to take away jobs from the poor AA pilots (and others) who need them. There is no evidence of that. Even if they did, as long as they were trained to US standards, what would be the harm safety-wise? I am against it totally because of economic harm but that’s not what is in view here. This has been my point all along.
BTW, why is it so bad that the FAA enforces rules with US MRO facilities? You argument that the overseas facilities are not overseen may or may not be valid, I have no idea, but at least if the FAA is as corrupt as you say, they are doing their job in the US! You may have an issue with them but complaining about everything they do (bad or good!) makes you sound rather fanatical and in my opinion, makes you loose credibility in your campaign to blow the whistle on the FAA.
David:
Let me put it this way since you do not think I know what I am talking about. That by the way is okay with me. It is your opinion.
So I will put it this way. The Titanic was unsinkable. You are a passenger and you are confident there is no problem after the ship hit the ice burg! Fine!
Fanatical is not a strong enough word when it comes to the FAA. I know they have killed hundreds of people needlessly because of FAA management I have known and their agendas. Fraud, waste, abuse and criminal activity is the FAA. The people in my circles know what I am talking about. They know the truth. They have been there.
Lastly, I find it amusing that you made a statement about foreign pilots trained to FAA Standards. It would be okay for them to take AA pilot jobs. Well David AA management has already replaced thousands of their mechanic jobs using third world maintenance facilities.Imagine now it is okay to do the same with pilots. BTW these foreign mechanics make about 600 a month. AA management would just love ATP US trained (if they could get around Homeland Security….which they will!,,,eventually) pilots flying AA aircraft. How much will they be paid?
Oh yes, I think you are forgetting about terrorism. Almost forgot this little caveat!
So you and I don’t agree. So I hit back at you and say…..my information is correct because of my aviation background. I know what goes on behind the curtain!
Amen….
Richard, I am loath to take people expounding a conspiracy theory at face value unless some solid supporting evidence is given, but with that said, you may indeed be in the know about the dirty mess of corruption you claim is the FAA. I have no way of knowing if you are or not.
However, that is not really the point. It appears as if you are not reading my posts or if I am not making myself clear. All I said is that foreign pilots trained to US standards would not make a flight less safe, which is what you imply! Paying pilots more or less IN ITSELF doesn’t make a flight safer or not either. I then said I was not for this for economic reasons, and if you bothered to take the time to read my previous posts, you would see that in my reply of October 17, 2012 at 3:48 pm I said about Homeland Security view on this idea:
“Then you have Homeland Security! They would probably ship all the Airline CEO´s off to Guantanamo for even suggesting it, consider the risk in their minds!”
As you can see, I had already mentioned that there was no way Homeland Security would permit foreign pilots flying regularly in the US! Yet you seem to suggest I have forgotten about terrorism. Not at all! It may be you who are not taking the time to read and digest my arguments in the first place.
So it appears we do agree after all, Immigration will not allow foreign pilots to fly in the US at present, Homeland Security wont either! So no matter how corrupt the FAA is, how do you suppose the macabre Airline CEO’s will go about their master plan of outsourcing pilots?
You cant have your cake and eat it too.
Thank you Richard for all the evidence you’ve posted to substantiate your insights.(good links)
I detect some desperation in David’s reply(I thought you were Jim) maybe you changed your name. Even the odds 2 on 2.
Davie/Jimbo why don’t you just come clean and tell us you work for A4A/ATA, RAA or another industry lobby. Your statement about pilot pay and safety is identical to a talking point from these groups. The RAA’s frontman said exactly the same on CNN’s Larry King after the Colgan crash.
Davie said, “Paying pilots more or less IN ITSELF doesn’t make a flight safer or not either.”
Translation – whipping the galley slaves, wont affect the ships safety BECAUSE, THEY DON’T WANT TO GO DOWN WITH THE SHIP EITHER.
Therefore, David implies that pilots will not become suicidal because they work for peanuts.
“Now, sit up and pay attention”. (some substantiation) Colgan air Buffalo crash. That crew was not suicidal nor did they care about their pay??? Correction, they did care about their pay. They cared so much that instead of flying the plane they were talking about their misserable existence prior to the icing(its on the voice recorder). God rest their souls. Victims of vultures that sold them a dream job, pie in the sky, fast track to carrot on the stick.
They paid, yes paid, to work for Gulfstream International Airlines before Colgan. Gulfstream ran an FAA certified airline/training racket down in Miami until the Colgan stink caught up to them. Both Gulfstream and Colgan were CAL later UAL con/subcontractors. Gulfstream got bankruptsy cover and is now called Silver airways. Colgan was a subsidiary of Pinnacle(which means they were a subcontractor). They also tucked tail under bankruptcy and vanished, in name only of course.
A large part of Gulfstream business was selling their services to, “PAY ATTENTION NOW”, ++++FOREIGN PILOTS++++ who were not just taking jobs from ligitimate US pilots but actually paying to do so.
They used to pile them into houses(“probably” owned by FAA staff) in Miami Springs.
These racketeers make human traffickers look like girl scouts.
Restated;
The true source of wealth has allways been and will continue to be cheap labor, racketeering and brutallity.
Davie and Jimbo are choosing the path of, if you can’t beat’em join’em.
Everything is outsourced these days, even the military.
I hope AA pilots say enough is enough and all quit flying until the bankruptcy judge outsources AA’s management to Asia, because their airlines are so much better managed.
They would save billions.
Now that’s an idea worthy of an honorary MBA
This excerpt taken from the GIA 10-K filed Apr 14, 2008.
First Officer Program
The First Officer Program is a comprehensive program designed to prepare pilots for their commercial airline careers. The program entails a “train to proficiency” concept, typically resulting in well over 500 hours of training time, including ground school, simulator time and observation flights. This first portion of the program can be completed in three months. The second portion of the program involves up to 400 hours of FAA Regulation Part 121 commercial airline flight hours as a First Officer at Gulfstream. FAA Regulation Part 121 established operating standards and is the principal operating regulation applicable to all major US airlines. Gulfstream relies on the Academy as its preferred source of pilots, and nearly all of our permanent pilots are graduates of the First Officer Program.
Gulfstream Training Academy Provides Alternative
The program tuition is $29,900, although students receive an hourly wage during their line training, which makes the total cost around $27,900. Gulfstream’s approach, which bypasses having students build hours by working as flight instructors, is unusual in the aviation industry. Some people think that students shouldn’t have to “pay” to work as a first officer, but Gulfstream’s answer is that the 250 hours of line training turns green pilots into fully qualified candidates for airline positions. “
Here’s one that’s still doing it. Also in south Florida, probably the same racketeeres.
http://www.sunairacademy.com/first_officer_programs.php
Qualify As A Part-135 Airline Pilot And Fly The Line for Sun Air International Airline
— First Officer Program Price is $ 17,000. – After receiving $ 1,700 in flight pay the cost is actually $ 15,300 – That means you pay approximately $ 76 per hour – The cost of our advanced air crew professional training program is less than the cost of 200 hours of time building in a single piston aircraft.
I sometimes feel like “chicken little” you know that little fellow that keeps yelling the SKY IS FALLING! I always post a link when I can, that support my statements about aviation problems. Believe me they are out their and the FAA cringes when I send them to management.
So, let me say that I find that problems exist because of what we will call “the revolving door policy”. It simply means that Government management retires and takes an airline job or Airline management takes an FAA job.
Examples would be David Grizzle ATO manager formerly from Continental Airlines… http://www.faa.gov/about/key_officials/grizzle_ato/
FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt goes to Southwest Airlines.
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/10/southwest-airlines-names-randy-babbitt-as-senior-vice-president-of-labor-relations.html/
So with that being said the FAA and the Airlines are a big good old boy club. The bottom line is money and I have to say these managers make a lot of money to keep the lid on and and cover-up problems.
As a member of the FAA WHISTLEBLOWERS ALLIANCE, I become involved with a group of former and current FAA employees who were harassed and or fired for doing their respective jobs. see link
http://www.aflyer.com/0906_f_faawhistleblowers.html
So after my departure from the FAA in November 2002 I decided to investigate and expose FAA corruption and the good old boy club. see links
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK9JAthThDs AND…..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkwVxZAhhRU&feature=related
As time went on I found serious safety issues and potential danger to the US Commercial Industry due to inept management, greed and down right corruption. Airnation link.. http://airnation.net/2012/10/03/faa-regulatory-capture/
These good old boys know there is going to be crashes and deaths, however so far, they have been very…very…lucky….because our pilots were able to bring the sick bird back and all was well again. Now they want to gut the US pilot pool and get cheaper labor and this will be the straw that breaks the camels back.
Yes it is true that Colgan Air was the last major crash and we have not had an accident since 2009….yes….it is true. But the layers of safety are gone
see Colgan report… http://www.aflyer.com/0910_f_responsible.html
Could anyone look at this FRONTLINE REPORT and think all is well???
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/view/
Now, our major airlines are failing. Airline Management is try to bust the unions and before someone says to me….but look at SOUTHWEST AND JET BLUE their labor is happy!…..I say BullS*ht …..
CHEAP LABOR
see link http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/third-world-mechanics-paid-2-per-hour-for-boeing-a/nDNwr/
SOUTHWEST GOES FOR CHEAP MAINTENANCE
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/Southwest-Airlines-Will-Send-Planes-to-El-Salvador-For-Maintanence.html
The majors are on course to merge into a few carriers with cheap labor, with outsourced maintenance and lower paid pilots, The rest of the non-union carriers will go the way of cheap labor also.
The DOT,FAA,DHS,NTSB are all going to allow this to happen. The unknown will be the accident rate and the potential for terrorism
The FAA is ready with their damage control team.
Alas Ovrille, I am not Jim nor is he me, nor do I know him. It is interesting that the desperation claim is always launched by those who feel they are loosing the argument, and then the crowning jewel, attempting to silence the voice of truth by accusing me of being in the pocket of “big airline” probably one of the many lobbys! If it comes down to it, your arguments are the same ones toted out by the Unions but you don’t see me using that as my argument!
One cannot help read both your posts and Richards’ and not note an immense degree of bitterness and hatred in them. As I have said before, I am actually an loyal AA flyer, Executive Platinum, and have been for years. I have no contact with the Air industry apart from flying with them. It is my best personal interest planes do not fall out of the sky!
HOWEVER, Once again, if you bother to actually read my posts, the only position I have been defending has been that Qatar’s joining Oneworld is not the catalyst that will lead to thousands of AA pilots losing their jobs! That is ludicrous stupidity on the part of the AA Pilots Union.
Okay Gentlemen, I am just a nobody that happens to be female possessing a great interest in aviation matters along with health & safety and law.
However, this thread is getting tiresome and is like being upon a roundabout/carousel with no way to get off it!! Many insults, feathers ruffled and an apparent lack of a moderator….am I incorrect here?
I enjoy this domain very much and wish to continue contributing but I sometimes wish I was able to do some knitting but sadly even that is beyond me due to disabilities.
Can we not respect each other even if are unable to see eye to eye?
This thread is being moderated. Did I miss something that should be deleted?
I have not felt insulted at all during the discussion, and personally enjoy a spirited and well presented debate, and hearing and seeing the other persons point of view. It helps enrich my own point of view. I have all respect for both Richard´s and Orville´s arguments and actually agree with some of what they say. I cannot speak for them of course and have no idea how they feel. Cheers.
Check out this breaking news item….what are AA{s pilots going to say now???? As I said before, the concept that QR´s entry into OW would cause thousands of job losses is ludicrous….
http://airnation.net/2012/10/24/american-recall-2500-pilots/
David:
Read this report
http://www.ibtimes.com/american-airlines-moves-hire-new-flight-attendants-lower-pay-848333#
New AA Flight Attendants will start between 14-19k per year.
In addition the 2500 pilots coming back will be new hires at an unknown pay scale and existing AA pilots on furlough also might return with an unknown pay scale.
I smell a strike brewing with AA pilots. Labor will see through this so called big hiring announcement.
The whole thing is a game!
David;
They’re gonna turn around and raise their kilts.
Tell them something that they don’t aready know. So, nothing to see here, move along.
SOME FACTS
1. “AA still has 1,685 furloughed pilots, of which 650 have yet to be offered recall. The rest have deferred recall”(that’s because most are not coming back, by choice). http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/american.html I have a friend who deferred because he makes more flying corporate. His brother has no college runs a small business and earns triple his pay. He often tells me that if given a second chance at youth he would not become a pilot, sad.
2. “A previous flow through agreement with American Airlines allows for over 3,000 current American Eagle pilots (as of October 2011) to flow to American”.(to make up for retirements over the years) http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/american_eagle.html
These are the contractors that where offered carrots not to abandon ship after their overloard(AA), whose passengers they fly, declared bankruptcy. The HIDDEN RACKET is that alot of Eagle pilots are high seniority now 10-20 years(=higher payscale) and since you can’t cut bone,(some contractor airline pilots qualify for food stamps)it was only natural to throw them a bone instead of money.(street smarts, unfortunatly, is not a prerequesite for pilot credentials but it seems to be for MBA’s, banksters, lawyers and politicians) AA, then gets to outsourcingly hire pilots at the lowest pay entry point, lowering the average seniority at Eagle and by default operating cost. The stick part of the racket is, if senior Eagle pilots don’t get lost, Eagle becomes too costly and they’ll spin it off or sell it and outsource to a new airline with fresher meat.
3.Mandatory retirements – Over the next five years AA will loose about 750-1000 pilots to retirement.(The airlines managed to delay that storm by greasing the wheels in washington-the mandatory retirement age was raised from 60 to 65 about five years ago “because most people start a family and buy their first home in their golden years”)
Sumary;
All “real” new hiring will be at the outsourced level(the ones that qualify for food stamps). International expantion will mostly occur through codesharing/alliances.
Retirement, don’t count on it, in another 30 years they’ll be tucking tail to see the bankruptcy judge again(round and round we go)
Richard,
I just read the ibtimes.com link and this was my favorite part.
“Since Sept. 11, 2001, American Airlines has practically been hemorrhaging money. The company has lost more than $10 billion in that time frame, and in 2003 flight attendants unions agreed to a significant pay cut – though they later found out that executives and managers received bonuses that year”.
I remember this about AA management back when it happened. Pilots took pay cuts also.
I think we all agree that there are tough times ahead for our airlines. The election has put everything on the back burner for now media wise, However we all will be watching and reporting. One good thing is corruption is easily exposed through the internet. FAA and Airline management are in bed together and that has to change. Unfortunately the only way that will, is the increase in the accident rate.
JUST REMEMBER OUTSOURCING IS DANGERIOUS
FAA calls it collateral damage around the water cooler at 800 Independence Avenue.